• English
  • Deutsch
  • Français
  • Español

Team Games under development

110 replies [Last post]
Pjotr's picture
Last seen: 18 weeks 4 days ago
Modo
Posts: 78
Points: 83
Dear Dharo - and others...

Good point of views, but - the problem with the team games from my point of view, to make it a fun, quick and action filled RS-game, but in teams, is that it is too complicated, within reasonable time limits and without reducing the number of moves, to be able to consider and plan/re-plan your own moves to make it a real team effort - not to mention confusing, as you don't know who validates first, and you might have to change your move the last five seconds, if you realise your own move will conflict with, or hurt your team-mates...

I hope we can agree on that description of the issue, at least sort of...

So - the only way to make it really quick is to make team moves visible to other team-mates. Then you can react faster, and correct your moves fast according to your team-mates validated moves. Looking at the chat-room, find the bot on the map, and then think about the moves, belts, turners etc, just makes it too difficult and to me, boring if I can't make make a good move for the team.

However - if you think visualising the planned moves are too complicated technically and have a too high cost-benefit ratio, then that is not an option. Still - if it would not be complicated technically, I for one can't see it would be too confusing, as you will only see one (in two players per team-games) or two (in three players per team games) ghost bots on your map. But as stated, this might be too complicated to fix...

So - to me, the only way to keep it a rapid game, but still team against team, would be to turn of team pushing/friendly fire and bombs etc. Then everybody can do their best moves, and - if time allows - see if anything could be changed and done even better for the team, considering the other team-members' moves as they turn up in the chat-room. But - at least, whatever I do, at least i won't hurt my team...! If we all make good moves, the sum of these good moves is hopefully better than the other teams moves... The team that collectively has made the most harm to the other team(s) will win. From that point of view, it's really a team effort to me.

And last, but not least - I want to avoid complaints between team-mates about their moves, which could turn out ugly, and against the positive spirit we all want on this game-site. With this suggestion, it reduces the "need" for complaining about other team-members moves afterwards. I have seen that, and experienced that personally too (since I´m such a bad player in team mode, as I don't have enough time, or may do a very good move and then validate at the same time with someone else in my team, and with his moves, I'll push him over the edge, or something)...

If you don't hurt your team-mates, at least you don't ruin or diminish their chances of performing a good game, and thereby any reasons for hard feelings between teammates will be reduced, and the aim will just be for everyone to make as clever move as possible - if you have time, and see other team-mates moves, also considering that.

So it all boils down to

1) keep the technology simple,
2) keep the games intense and quick, and
3) reduce (reasons for) bad feelings within teams.

The only way to do all of that - and at the same time, is to inactivate team kills and team damages, as I see it.

I keep an open door if anyone comes up with a wonderful solution that also fulfills ALL those targets at once, but in arguements for the other solutions, I miss solutions for reducing bad feelings within the teams.

IMHO,

/Pjotr




 

dharokan's picture
Last seen: 1 week 4 hours ago
Modo
Posts: 779
Points: 783
Hey Pjotr!

Nice to have such an extensive discussion here. (no sarcasm!)

Basically I share your point of view. Especially about avoiding bad feelings & agressions among players. 
That's the reason for my last posting not just being a simple "no no no" :p

Pjotr wrote:
the problem with the team games from my point of view, to make it a fun, quick and action filled RS-game, but in teams, is that it is too complicated, within reasonable time limits and without reducing the number of moves, to be able to consider and plan/re-plan your own moves to make it a real team effort - not to mention confusing, as you don't know who validates first, and you might have to change your move the last five seconds, if you realise your own move will conflict with, or hurt your team-mates...
You see, these words perfectly describe the fun in teamplaying for me. But that's just my personal taste (and obviously the taste of Gladiator and Yeku too).

So we could break it all down to a very basic question:

  • Should team mode be quick and easy
  • or shall it be tactical and challenging?

I would not veto to make the game quick and easy. I understand all the points but still I try to speak for those who would love to have a little more. 

So I don't understand why this couldn't be an option at creating a game.

Pjotr wrote:
However - if you think visualising the planned moves are too complicated technically and have a too high cost-benefit ratio, then that is not an option.
Not only that. I am sure that it would not help much. Imagine the game (let's say 3 vs 3):
You see 2 previews of your teammates move. What happens when you recognize a collision? You would change your moves, right? But so your teammate would do the same and change his moves, too. You cannot coordinate a team without a minimum of chat or without a givven order of the player's move. 
Showing the sequences in the chat as we are doing now provides an order because you know that these moves are already valided.


Since there seems to be no more "wonderful solution" as you said, let's talk about the details of your favorised solution.

Is there really a need to avoid "friendly pushes" too? 
If yes: How should we do it? (Please keep in mind the problems with stacks as I described above).

And how shall we deal with bombs?
(I still think it could be fun to still get the effect of being stunned, even by friendly bots.)

So at the moment, my suggestion would be something that we could call "Team shield".
Rule: No damage by teammates. 
(Yet pushing or the stun of a bomb would infect you.)


Cheers,
Dharo

... who loves long discussions  (ask chris ^^)
Pjotr's picture
Last seen: 18 weeks 4 days ago
Modo
Posts: 78
Points: 83
Hehehe, yeah... It's good that there is a discussion here, with some different views - without friction, no development! :-)

Anyway - we might have different views on what's nice about team games. I think long, strategic games will killl off interests of early losers and others waiting for the game to end to play a new game. And therefore, the quick and actionfilled game is my preference.

Just a quick point - I didn't mean that the visual bots should be shown when programming, only when validated. That might not change anyones opinion, but just so that is clear.

And fine - keeping friendly pushes and friendly damage from bombs, but taking away friendly damage from different lasers and blast - to me that could be OK... I think the most irritation comes from friendly shooting or blasting. Perhaps that's a good compromise...

At last - if I´m the only one thinking like me, and most others want something else, let's go with the majority of course, that's the good thing about democracy... :-D I certainly won´t have any difficulty in accepting what a majority of voices wants... :-)

/Pjotr

chris's picture
Last seen: 48 weeks 3 hours ago
Admin
Posts: 852
Points: 848
No need to convince me that RS wasn't basically designed for team games ... I resisted for years as you may know :D

I'm affraid there's no miracle to make team games much more simple, as RS can't be really "simple" when playing with more than 3 players. And I agree that playing rules shouldn't be too different between team or non team games if we want to keep consistancy and avoid confusion for new players.

The main source of conflicts, if I understand well, comes from players who where damaged by their team mates.
Here is a small suggestion that could solve maybe a little part (or the main part ?) of the issue :
:arrow: Make players bear responsibility for their own mistakes by :
- taking damages when shooting / blasting a teammate: teammate would have no damage
- prevent teammate pushes: teammate would block the move execution as a wall does
- for bombs, there would be no effects on teammates (today is my goodness day lol )

So there could be less complains as everyone has to care for teammates for his own survival... he he he :evil:
gladiator's picture
Last seen: 3 years 33 weeks ago
Golden bot
Posts: 102
Points: 102
Well guys, after reading your looong and enriching discussion :D, i think the best solution in team games is an option when you create: allow/disallow friendly fire.

The two ways are good and i think that it can be easy to do for Chris.

In my case i prefer friendly fire allowed with more time and chat with  my teammates about who will move first, if i have an advert about which damage i do, great. 

But why not a fast team game without worries about damage, great too.

Glad

enigma's picture
Last seen: 31 weeks 2 days ago
Titanium bot
Posts: 340
Points: 344
uh  a problem i thought of what about people who would want to troll and kill there teamates to make them angry....
Pjotr's picture
Last seen: 18 weeks 4 days ago
Modo
Posts: 78
Points: 83
I don't understand that comment, Enigma. In what way is that an actual problem...? 

/Pjotr
chris's picture
Last seen: 48 weeks 3 hours ago
Admin
Posts: 852
Points: 848
chris wrote:
The main source of conflicts, if I understand well, comes from players who where damaged by their team mates. Here is a small suggestion that could solve maybe a little part (or the main part ?) of the issue :
:arrow: Make players bear responsibility for their own mistakes by :
- taking damages when shooting / blasting a teammate: teammate would have no damage
- prevent teammate pushes: teammate would block the move execution as a wall does
- for bombs, there would be no effects on teammates (today is my goodness day lol )

So, what shall we do ? 
pilou's picture
Last seen: 2 years 8 weeks ago
Golden bot
Posts: 108
Points: 110
Create teams/clans before games, instead of random teams ingame :p
chris's picture
Last seen: 48 weeks 3 hours ago
Admin
Posts: 852
Points: 848
Hi Pilou,
OK good idea of course it would be the ultimate clan concept,
but won't we have the same issue between teammates when they kill each other by mistake ?